Rich Villodas, Understanding Our Family of Origin

Jessica Honegger [00:00:04] Hey, there, welcome to Going Scared. I'm Jessica Honegger, founder of the world changing brand at Noon Day Collection, and I am so glad that you are here. Our Going Scared community gathers here every week for direct and honest conversations that help you live a life of courage by leaving comfort and going scared. We are in the middle of our series called Know Thyself, and this series is your step-by-step guide to discover how to get to know yourself. And it has been amazing. I have learned so much. We've taken deeper dives into some things that I already knew about and were discovering new things, and we have created a digest for you. This digest is going to include links to take personality tests for free. It's going to include a synopsis of some of the tools that you've heard about. And if you want that, then go subscribe to my email list. You can head on over to JessicaHonegger.com or head on over to my Instagram where there is a link there. I would love for you to get your hands on this guide. All right, today's guest Rich Villodas and I wanted to have him on because he is so passionate about emotional health. Rich pastors a church in Queens with more than 75 countries represented, so self-awareness is critical for a job like his. I first discovered him through his book The Deeply Formed Life, and he spends a beautiful chapter in that book talking about different aspects of self-examination that he focuses on. And so we walk through each of those different aspects today. Emotional health, family of origin, examining your anxiety, examining your feelings. It's a really great conversation. Rich is so good to finally get to talk to you.

Rich Villodas [00:02:09] Jessica, thank you so much for the kind invitation. Look forward to a good conversation with you.

Jessica Honegger [00:02:15] So your book The Deeply Formed Life. It's so good, my friend. I think it was Jennie. It was Jennie Allen. I was talking to her about something and she's like, You've got to go get this book by Rich and I had not heard of your work, and now I'm totally obsessed. And oh my gosh, you're Instagram one liners that I'm sure they're on Twitter as well. I'm more active on Instagram. I seriously like if you go, look at my saved posts, it's just you. It's just all Rich Villodas.

Rich Villodas [00:02:48] Really grateful. And you know, for me, social media I love when it's encouraging to people, but I'm trying to work out often what I'm thinking and what I believe on that platform. So it's kind of risky to do it that way. But I've enjoyed trying to make things succinct.

Jessica Honegger [00:03:05] Yeah, but I know, and that's what's so powerful. But yeah, you've got a lot of humility there, so I appreciate it. I, you know, yeah, we're all we're all figuring out the good of this and we're walking through it. So it's helpful to have pastors who are active there just because, you know, that's it's marrying of the secular, the sacred life on mission. And I really value your voice there. So thank you.

Rich Villodas [00:03:30] Thank you.

Jessica Honegger [00:03:31] All right. So we are smack dab in the middle of our series on self awareness, and this is something I would say you specialize in. Is this idea of self examination and you put it so succinctly and your last book, The Deeply Formed Life, and [00:03:49]you said the goals of self-examination are threefold. First, through these practices, we open ourselves up to the grace and presence of God. The truth is, we're all in the same boat of needing a regular rhythm to help us grow an awareness of our blind spots, shadow sides, and hidden sins. Second, we live in a world with greater freedom and tangling ourselves from the web of inner dysfunction. Confusion and the practice of looking within is not to be an act of masochism, but a choice to honor our own feelings without shame or judgment, which is so much easier said than done. Mm hmm. And then you say and that thirdly, that we become a presence in the world and this is the part that I love and that I really loved about your work is you just marry this contemplative inner world with how that looks in our embodied outer world reality on mission. And you say that that we can we are capable of working towards peace with our neighbors and love for those who might be considered enemies. [56.6s] And, you know, even Jesus himself on the sermon on the Mount instructed us to take that way of self-examination, removing the logs from our own eyes that we might see the specks of dust in our neighbors. And let's face it, the world's in need of dust, desperate need of people willing to examine their own selves before examining others. Yes, can we get an amen? And and we're so accustomed to viewing, judging and comparing others rather than ourselves. So there is a million things you could have written about in this chapter, but you specifically write about examining family of origin, anxiety, and our feelings. So I'm going to have you go through each of those. But before that, even what has been your journey towards becoming a more self aware human?

Rich Villodas [00:05:37] Yeah, you know, I think so so much of my own journey has to do with the people who God has put in my way, who have helped me ask questions of myself that it can be quite scary at times. And so having people so my own journey, I think whether it's professors, whether it's mentors, whether it's pastors who have gently led me into my own inner excavation and interior examination, you know, I wouldn't be able to do it without them. [00:06:10]Becoming a Christian, you know, I'm forty two years old. I became a Christian at 19. The language of interior examination or interiority was not present at all. And so getting a theology a few years later around the Psalms, I when I when I would read the Psalms, I would read David and these other writers who just seemed so in tune with their interior life and had an ability to articulate their longings, their anxieties, their anger, their passion, their joy, sometimes in uninhibited ways. And I would read the Psalms and just see such a disconnect in my own life of do I speak with this level of freedom? Am I in touch with what's happening inside of me? [51.5s] And so I think the Psalms were so important for. Me in modeling what kind of an emotionally healthy. I'm not sure if people look at the it says, like emotionally healthy, especially when there are some pretty bad Psalms in there too. You know, some things that I would not want anyone to read in my own journal. But what I think the Psalmist gets at is there is a freedom, an ability to look within without shame and offer that before God. [00:07:30]And so I think over the years, I have slowly grown into seeing this as not a secondary tertiary issue in in faith. This is a primary issue of faith. Am I familiar with myself? Am I using God to run from myself or am I lifting mind and heart to God? [21.3s] And so The Deeply Formed Life in these chapters on into your examination is, in many respects trying to capture my own journey of self-discovery and self-awareness.

Jessica Honegger [00:08:05] When you think about how you are experienced as a leader in your early 30s and how you are experienced now, what are some of those outward changes that took place? Because that's what self-awareness does. It helps us become aware so that then we can then choose. And before you're just blind. Without awareness, you're blind. And so usually, hopefully that path of awareness leads us to choosing a path where we can now show up as peacemakers, you know, which is what you are in the world that is one of your greatest gifts that you offer the world. So I just want to hear about that journey because I'm sure it's not all Pollyanna.

Rich Villodas [00:08:41] No, it's not. I think what I've learned, number one, is I've had to grow in lots of self-awareness regarding the power that I carry. And that's probably been the biggest learning for me that my words carry, especially in the community that I pastor. A church called New Life Fellowship in Queens, New York, a very large, multi-ethnic church with over with people from over 75 nations represented. And it's quite a delicate place to be a pastor because there's so many differences. And so I've had to learn in my early 30s a decade ago, I found myself a lot more flippant, I think, and some of the words that I said and some of the opinions that I would articulate, whether it was on social media or otherwise. But what I've learned is a lot of people are looking to me for direction, for guidance. And if I'm not growing aware of the power that I steward and the ways that my words can hurt people, you know, that's that's that's really bad leadership. And so I made some mistakes, I think, in my early thirties and not that I'm not making mistakes today, but I think that's one area. Probably the biggest area as a leader for me is growing an awareness of the power that I carry.

Jessica Honegger [00:10:02] It can be almost a lonely discovery, though. I know that you have amazing mentors and are part of this movement around emotional health, especially when it comes to spirituality. But I imagine you have a group of people you walk with where you can kind of say the things that you are using restraint in other areas of your life.

Rich Villodas [00:10:25] Oh yeah, I mean, besides my wife, of course, Rosie, who so grateful to have someone who I'm able to be incredibly honest with and really give expression to what's happening in my soul. And beyond her, you know, I meet with three pastors the first Wednesday of each month where we're able to talk freely about just the the pressures, the stressors, the anxieties, the joys of being in leadership. And so having a space where I can regularly. And of course, I mean, having a therapist, I have seasonal therapy, spiritual direction. I need a lot of outlets to to continue to name what is true on the inside of my soul and grow in greater familiarity with myself.

Jessica Honegger [00:11:15] I love that - to name what is true. I just started a group a couple of months ago, and it's what we call it a confessional community, and it is seven female leaders. And sort of the purpose of the group is to be able to name our truest story so that we can become our truest selves on this journey. So I love that that's yeah, how you identify that as. OK well, let's talk about family of origin first. You know, because I it's interesting to me because even in this podcast series, you know, we're talking about tools. So we're talking about EMDR, inner family systems were speaking about, you know, enneagram, of course, StrengthsFinder, Myers-Briggs. We were interviewing neurobiologists, you know, we're covering this wide range, but as I was reading reading this chapter, I thought, Oh my gosh, like actually, I could do a whole podcast on family of origin, I mean, in some ways we did do a podcast on attachment theory, which very much has to do with family of origin. But yeah, I'm curious how you landed on these three, you know, topics in particular that you encourage us to examine. So let's kick it off with family of origin.

Rich Villodas [00:12:30] Yeah. Family of origin. I was first introduced to the concept of family of origin in seminary, and I had to do a genogram which was, you know, a tool that helps you trace your, your family from, you know, two to three, four generations before you. And the goal is not just to put names on a family tree to see, you know, what was grandpa's name and great grandpa's name? The goal is to really identify what are the patterns, the traumas and the scripts that have been handed down from one generation to the next. And how does our family of origin shape the way we live in the world today? In many ways that are inconsistent with the way of Jesus. But it started there and then going to New Life where I pastor right now, I had the great privilege. My predecessor, a guy named by the name of Pete Scazzero, he received his doctorate in family systems theory with a focus on the genogram. And so when I got to New Life, it was actually quite common that genogram work was part of our spiritual formation plan. But if you're that, if you're part of our congregation, we are going to lead you into doing your own genogram in various contexts to help you grow in greater awareness of the ways that your family has shaped you. [00:13:50]And so one of the things that we say often is that Jesus may live in your heart, but grandpa lives in your bones [4.5s] because we have, you know, the very structures of our lives have been handed down by our families. And certainly, there are positive legacies that we've been handed down and wonderful things that we are to cherish and treasure. And at the same time, there's some negative legacies that we must learn to name and to resist. So but that's how I got into it in seminary and then coming to a church where the previous pastor utilized this. And from this point on, we use it so often in so many different contexts that new life as a tool of spiritual formation. Hmm.

Jessica Honegger [00:14:32] That's so good. You know, I have done a lot of things, lots of therapy, lots all the things, but I have not done genogram.

Rich Villodas [00:14:41] You know, there's an immediacy to the genogram because there's something about actually patiently examining our families. And I get understand that not everyone's going to have the same amount of information as the next person regarding our families for various reasons. But it's one it's it's remarkable to see on a piece of paper or on a whiteboard or on a PowerPoint, what have you. These are the generations that have preceded, and these are our generational sins. The patterns that have been handed down the earthquake events, the traumas. [00:15:18]And then in light of all of that, I think perhaps for me, at least the most important facet of the genogram is not just identifying all that went wrong in our family. The real nugget is what are the conscious and unconscious internalized messages or the scripts that I live into day in and day out? And are those messages leading me into life or leading me to death? [28.1s] That's really the goal of the genogram. And there is there is an immediacy because we're able to see so much brokenness on the page. And I think it gives us an opportunity to begin to identify the ways that God wants to heal us.

Jessica Honegger [00:16:02] Oh my gosh, so good. I'm like ready to go. Sign up for a genogram conference.

Rich Villodas [00:16:07] We do it with our actually, we do it with our every other year or so. We've done it with our pastoral team and we've shared our organigram and it's vulnerable. And at times it's a very emotional and painful. But it bonds us because what we all realize is we all come from families that have some brokenness, no matter where you're from. So and our parents do the best that we they probably could, and there's still a significant amount of brokenness. And so it's quite bonding if you can do it in a small group. We pray for one another, but it truly is a gift to grow in self-awareness.

Jessica Honegger [00:16:46] Oh, so good. So good. OK. Next, you asked us to examine our anxiety, which of course, just makes me cringe. I'm like, Oh that's where I carry a lot of my brokenness.

Rich Villodas [00:16:59] Yeah, well, let's talk about that. What? What anxiety is, first of all? Idea is not about necessarily feelings of like timidity. [00:17:09]People often associate anxiety with fear and so to which I sometimes I hear people say, Well, you know, I'm not a fearful person. I don't have anxiety, but anxiety is more than just feeling afraid. Anxiety is this automatic response to a real or perceived threat. And the ways that we respond automatically, sometimes it might be timidity and fear and panic. Other times it might be anger. Sometimes it's manipulation and control. Sometimes it's sleeping. I mean, there are various ways that we respond to what we feel is a perceived or a real threat. [39.5s] And so first of all, just defining anxiety in that way is really important because I hear plenty of people say I'm not an anxious person, but but to be human is to be anxious. It's Steve Cuss a friend of mine, he wrote a book called Managing Leadership Anxiety and it's a wonderful book. And that's kind of the premise of it. To to be human is to be anxious, and our anxiety manifests in so many different ways. Now the difference is identifying what is acute anxiety, which is situational, which is time based. This momentary loss of self composure, we all carry some acute anxiety. But then there's this chronic anxiety that is not specific to any threat. It's, you know, it's the kind of anxiety that you get an email from someone and you haven't even read it, but you just see their name and you're already flipping out. It's just like, What's happening there? What's what's going on in your soul? What are you carrying? And part of the spiritual life and part of growing and self-awareness is paying attention to those automatic reactions that lurk beneath the surface and the ways that anxiety shows up. So it's it is certainly hard work, but it is good soul work, for sure.

Jessica Honegger [00:19:06] It is OK. I can't resist. I have been reading this book. Barely, barely, just got it. It's called The Unopened Gift, A Primer in Emotional Literacy. My business partner recommended it to me. I happened to open it right up to this, you know, little box that says a new view of anxiety. And I dog eared the book I'm a dog ear. You should, you should see your book. It's highlighted and sold dog eared. So I'm curious, I'm just going to read this to you and I, because I had never really heard it presented like this. I'd be curious what your response it says "the emotional learning that has been most useful has to do with anxiety and the distinctions I've learned between anxiety, fear and doubt. I've been living with a fair amount of anxiety around my health, and as a result, my future SIAC can be defined onto logically as the fear of some unknown threats. What I learned from Dan is to reflect and see if I can shift the anxiety into fear or doubt, and this is the part that I thought was really interesting. By shifting anxiety into fear of a specific threat, I'm able to take action to resolve or mitigate the threat." Which is interesting because my therapist has had me kind of like, Well, what's the worst thing you can think of? What's the worst outcome? And to kind of actually logically so. And then then, he says, "by transforming anxiety into doubt, I can see that this is something I've never done before, and therefore the doubt is not unwarranted. I can then call upon courage to proceed into this new territory. I now view anxiety as a beginning point rather than a place to wallow. A call for inquiry and reflection to identify exactly what is causing me concern."

Rich Villodas [00:20:49] That's beautiful. You know, the language that I I try to use, I think that's pretty similar is how can I become more compassionately curious with myself? Whenever anxiety surfaces? And so I think what the excerpt you just read gets at is anxiety is being driven by the lizard brain that part of our brain that there is no thought to it. There is no getting outside of ourselves. It is full reaction to a perceived or real threat. But what you're getting at what that excerpt I love is it's moving it from that place of automatic reactivity and emotionality to how do I actually give significant thought, prayerful reflection and compassionate curiosity to what's actually happening in my life? So that's a beautiful excerpt.

Jessica Honegger [00:21:42] Yeah, I mean, it's just interesting because usually you think like, OK, I want to move from anxiety and to peace. You're right, but this is like actually break down your anxiety and turn it into a fear or a doubt. And then it's like, OK, well, this is my fear. And then it's more of using that logical brain like well than what's the worst thing that can happen? OK, but then would I really be alone? No, because I've got, you know this this person, this person would help me in that situation, right? You know, and then in the doubt part, is that compassionate like, well, of course, I'm doubting I've never done this before and anyway, but I've never just thought of moving anxiety into fear, but actually that that made sense to me. So thanks for letting me indulge myself. OK, so the last idea here that you ask us to examine is our feelings.

Rich Villodas [00:22:28] Yeah. You know, when it comes to the spiritual life, it's often the case that feelings are usually not even considered as part of the equation. It's usually like faith. It's whatever facts are before us. And then if we can get to feelings, then let's explore that. As opposed to what I as I mentioned earlier, the Psalms, we look at Jesus, we see fully integrated people, which is really the goal of emotional health. [00:22:57]When I think about emotional health, I'm thinking of three words I'm thinking about integrity, integration and love and integrity is not living something perfectly, but wrestling with something faithfully. Integration is holding all of my parts together and refusing to compartmentalize. And this is all for the sake of love. I'm not just trying to do this for the sake of navel gazing or just for self-actualization. I want my life to be marked by love [27.3s] and so feelings to pay attention to our feelings leads us into number one reality. What's actually happening right now? My feeling? And I think what it does produce in us, the more we are fluent and conversant with our own soul and the feelings that we have, the more we're able to be a good gift to other people who are experiencing the same. And so if I am more conversant with my own anger whenever I see someone angry, I think I can enter into that space a little bit more lovingly. When I'm familiar with my own anxiety or my own sadness and I see someone else experiencing those feelings, I think I'm able to be in their presence and in a different way. And so, you know, if if the spiritual life is not giving us the spiritual life that we're living, it's not giving us, permission to feel. [00:24:18]per Gnosticism, obviously ism, [1.5s] it's not it's not the way of Jesus, that's for sure. And what I've discovered is, in certain contexts, religious context, church context. You know, it's often the case that we have one Bible verse about our feelings. And I've heard it in many different churches is usually Philippians 4 where Paul says Rejoice in the Lord, always. And again, I say rejoice. That we should be rejoicing all the time and the people who quote that. I mean, it's either they maybe they ripped it out of their own Bible, but there's another book in the Bible called Lamentations. And so the question is, is it rejoice? Or is it how long o lord? And I think the answer is yes. It's we're holding all of these things together, and that's what paying attention to our feelings requires. I want to live the full human life. And sometimes it means feelings of joy, and sometimes it means feelings of grief and anxiety and anger.

Jessica Honegger [00:25:15] So true, it's so true. Well, I love that you even use the term at navel gazing. I told my Instagram followers I was going to be doing this series and people were super excited. But then, of course, a couple of people were like, Well, what's the point of self-awareness? And isn't that selfish? And isn't it navel gazing? So I'd love for us to end with what's the cost of choosing this path of, I mean, really, it's a path of ignorance if you just choose to not examine yourself. What is the cost on us?

Rich Villodas [00:25:46] Yeah. And I think the cost. First of all, is costly, which whichever way we go.

Jessica Honegger [00:25:52] So that will amen to that.

Rich Villodas [00:25:54] [00:25:54]There's so there's a cost. It is painful to look within. Make no doubt about it. But just as painful and maybe even more painful is not looking within. [11.3s] I mean, part of the, you know, sometimes people don't go to the doctor because they are afraid of looking within or having the doctor examine something on their body, and they rather live with this sense of a happy obliviousness. That's OK. And then and then, you know, something that could have been taken care of now is much worse than it could have been. And so at some point, us refusing to do this hard work of looking within is going to lead to a whole new set of problems. And so it's a cost no matter which way we decide to go. However, I think the decision to actually do the hard work of looking within with friends, with God, you know, recognizing God is with us as painful as it is, I think ultimately leads to life. To avoid looking within I think ultimately leads to greater problems at heart.

Jessica Honegger [00:27:03] It truly is the ultimate act of courage, which is what this podcast is all about. Thank you so much for joining us today, Rich.

Rich Villodas [00:27:11] Well, thanks for having me. This is stuff I love to talk about, so thanks for the invitation.

Jessica Honegger [00:27:19] All right. I feel like I could do a whole new podcast series now on the genogram, that is a new tool that I had not heard of before. But if you want all of these tools at your fingertips, then head on over to subscribe to my email list, either on my website, JessicaHonegger.com Or over on my Instagram. There's a link. We have created Know Thyself Digest for you, where you can take different tests for free and have all of these resources at your fingertips. Today's music is by Ellie Holcomb and I'm Jessica Honegger. Until next time. Let's take each other by the hand and keep going scared.